No Pre Nup, consequences

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  • ReveurGAM
    Member
    • May 2009
    • 721

    Can you please respond to my message, Atlantis?

    Glenn
    I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

    Comment

    • atlantis
      Banned
      • Jul 2008
      • 16594

      Can you PM a link to your question? I am about to leave Indonesia and stick to reported post, moderation duties or light bantering as much as I can. If I am able to provide you an answer, I will. Just make your querry short, OK?

      Comment

      • ReveurGAM
        Member
        • May 2009
        • 721

        Originally posted by atlantis View Post
        Can you PM a link to your question? I am about to leave Indonesia and stick to reported post, moderation duties or light bantering as much as I can. If I am able to provide you an answer, I will. Just make your querry short, OK?
        Please see post #86. Due to your tagline, and your PM today, I won't be sending it in PM. Thank you very kindly for your response!
        Glenn
        I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

        Comment

        • james
          Member
          • May 2009
          • 331

          Originally posted by ReveurGAM View Post
          Hence my asking Atlantis why he said that. I figured either I don't know something (which is usually the case) or he made a mistake.

          His comment was so brief that it doesn't include the fact that, aside from your example of a very explicit prenup, Wills would be necessary to stipulate the disbursement of any inheritances.

          I hope he'll respond soon.
          Glenn
          Actually, muslim law stipulates a certain distribution of assets. Whilst I've never checked, I presume that Indonesian law says something like, for muslims, absent a will, distribution follows such and such rules. Thus, if you converted to marry your muslim spouse and one of you dies before the other, don't presume the surviving spouse takes all. Thus, in a country like Indonesia, I would recommend having a will.
          "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -Thomas Paine.

          Comment

          • ReveurGAM
            Member
            • May 2009
            • 721

            That's also my assumption (having a will), although I know nothing of the Muslim laws about inheritances, which was another thing that prompted my question. Unfortunately, he's getting ready to leave the country so I think I'm going to have to wait a while before I get an answer (if he ever has enough time to answer, that is).

            What do you think happens to a person who converts to Islam and then converts (at some later date) to another religion? I don't know about Buddhism, Hinduism or Kong Hu Chu (sic), and I don't remember what the various Christian sects say about inheritances.

            Given the importance of God here "Panca Sila: 1) Ketuhanan yang maha esa.", do religious laws always, sometimes, or on a case-by-case basis pre-empt federal laws here? That could make things really messy (pre-emption of federal laws).

            Glenn
            I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

            Comment

            • dontpanic
              Member
              • Mar 2009
              • 101

              Originally posted by ReveurGAM View Post
              That's also my assumption (having a will), although I know nothing of the Muslim laws about inheritances, which was another thing that prompted my question. Unfortunately, he's getting ready to leave the country so I think I'm going to have to wait a while before I get an answer (if he ever has enough time to answer, that is).

              What do you think happens to a person who converts to Islam and then converts (at some later date) to another religion? I don't know about Buddhism, Hinduism or Kong Hu Chu (sic), and I don't remember what the various Christian sects say about inheritances.

              Given the importance of God here "Panca Sila: 1) Ketuhanan yang maha esa.", do religious laws always, sometimes, or on a case-by-case basis pre-empt federal laws here? That could make things really messy (pre-emption of federal laws).

              Glenn
              Dear Glen,

              I do hope that you eventually do get your answer from Atlantis. Meanwhile, I can see that you are researching this issue very carefully. And I wish you well, and hope that you will put the correct Structure in place to serve your needs. At the best cost!!

              Meanwhile, to address your new question, yes, Indonesia provides for various treatments of an Estate and the disposition of the assets therein, depending upon religion and, to a certain extent, how you were married. However, a Prenuptial Agreement, providing that it is properly established, would have legal supremacy, irrespective. The only issue of any contention, actually, would be landed property which, in the existence of a Prenuptial Agreement would, in any case, be the sole and uncontestable, property exclusively of the WNI spouse. Other assets would be protected as established in the Prenuptial Agreement.

              The issue of Wills is an entirely different matter and, in the case of a mixed (WNA/WNI) marraige, largely irrelevant because a WNA CANNOT legally register a Will in Indonesia. A Last Will and Testament may only be registered in a limited number of centres in Indonesia but that excludes foreigners.

              Hope that helps clarify.
              Last edited by dontpanic; 01-11-11, 20:42.

              Comment

              • jstar
                Member
                • Jul 2011
                • 6054

                Now come come. Don't get in a rage now. Think this has been one big misunderstanding. Extra advice is always welcome and your input is appreciated.
                [FONT=arial black]
                [/FONT]

                Comment

                • ReveurGAM
                  Member
                  • May 2009
                  • 721

                  What a shame. Someone who understands law and English, and now wants to leave this forum over a misunderstanding. I hope you'll reconsider.

                  DP, thanks for the information, *I* appreciate it, even if I don't exactly understand what that first paragraph was all about. I wish I could research it thoroughly, but I'm at a loss as to where to start searching for information that would answer that question. Also, at this time I'm embroiled in legal matters that take precedence over my curiosity.

                  As for my prenup, it used to be posted as an example on www.expat.or.id, but I guess they took it off since I can't find it. It may not have been a very good translation, but it was the best I could do at the time - 2003 or 2004.

                  I looked at http://www.expat.or.id/info/prenuptialagreement.html which has a tiny bit more information about keeping the pre-nup up to date near the bottom, but not enough info to answer my questions fully, unfortunately.

                  Glenn
                  I'm not arrogant or a know-it-all - I'm over-eager to help & not very good at writing humbly. Verify my answers!

                  Comment

                  • james
                    Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 331

                    DP,

                    I agree with what you wrote but the sentence I bolded is a bit misleading because it assumes that the pre-nup addresses such issues. Not all pre-nups do. Moreover, with changed circumstances, e.g., children, inheritance rules change.

                    Originally posted by dontpanic View Post
                    Dear Glen,

                    I do hope that you eventually do get your answer from Atlantis. Meanwhile, I can see that you are researching this issue very carefully. And I wish you well, and hope that you will put the correct Structure in place to serve your needs. At the best cost!!

                    Meanwhile, to address your new question, yes, Indonesia provides for various treatments of an Estate and the disposition of the assets therein, depending upon religion and, to a certain extent, how you were married. However, a Prenuptial Agreement, providing that it is properly established, would have legal supremacy, irrespective. The only issue of any contention, actually, would be landed property which, in the existence of a Prenuptial Agreement would, in any case, be the sole and uncontestable, property exclusively of the WNI spouse. Other assets would be protected as established in the Prenuptial Agreement.

                    The issue of Wills is an entirely different matter and, in the case of a mixed (WNA/WNI) marraige, largely irrelevant because a WNA CANNOT legally register a Will in Indonesia. A Last Will and Testament may only be registered in a limited number of centres in Indonesia but that excludes foreigners.

                    Hope that helps clarify.
                    "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -Thomas Paine.

                    Comment

                    • memel
                      Member
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 24

                      Hello everyone

                      After reading this post i'm lil bit lost with all this pre nup issue. I'll get married in august (i am foreigner and my husband is indonesian), and i didnt think before today, to make a pre nup agreement. Now i'm reconsidering this question. I understand that it's easier for indonesian spouse to own a land (buy and sell) on his/her own name (with a pre nup agreement). If we dont get pre nup agreement, the ownership can be illegal. But i have 2 questions :
                      1) What is the negative point of pre nup agreement ? (i guess there is other consequencies...)
                      2) If my husband dies before me, which precaution can we take before to assure i won't be homeless suddenly? (in the situation we have no kids or our kids have foreign nationalities)

                      Thank you very much for your help!

                      Comment

                      • marcus
                        Member
                        • Jul 2008
                        • 9214

                        Originally posted by memel View Post
                        1) What is the negative point of pre nup agreement ? (i guess there is other consequencies...)

                        2) If my husband dies before me, which precaution can we take before to assure i won't be homeless suddenly? (in the situation we have no kids or our kids have foreign nationalities)
                        1) It is an agreement , so it should have no negative point .
                        Lets suppose the foreign spouse contributes 50% to buy the house/land which will officially be 100% owned by the Indonesian spouse . I think this can be compensated , like stating the Indonesian spouse borrowed some amount of money from the foreigner spouse and this debt will increase according the inflation index informed by the government .

                        2) The foreign spouse can inherit the Indonesian house/land , but has one year to sell it . Better check the law(s)/regulation(s) about inheritance . It seems inheritance rule is different depending on religion .

                        (non official translation)
                        Article 21 of land Law

                        (1) Only a citizen of Indonesia may have property rights.

                        (2) The Government stipulates the legal entities that can have property rights and terms.

                        (3) Foreigners who after the enactment of this Act do obtain property by inheritance without a will or a mixture of property through marriage, as well as Indonesian citizens who have property and after the enactment of this law loses his citizenship must relinquish it within one year since obtaining such rights or loss of citizenship . If after that time period past the property was not released, then that right is lost because the the land is transferred to the state, provided that the rights of other parties which encumber still ongoing.

                        (4) For a person who in addition to his Indonesian citizenship has foreign citizenship so he/she can not have property rights and land with him/her , the provisions of paragraph 3 of this article is applicable .
                        Last edited by marcus; 25-01-12, 09:54.

                        Comment

                        • Davita
                          Member
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 3377

                          Copied from marcus ^ #116

                          2) The foreign spouse can inherit the Indonesian house/land , but has one year to sell it . Better check the law(s)/regulation(s) about inheritance . It seems inheritance rule is different depending on religion .

                          I can attest to that as it happened to my friend, who lives in Hong Kong. His wife died and he inherited family property which he needed to sell within 12 months. Instead, he legally sold his share to his deceased wife's sister for a fraction of its value. They were all Christian.

                          Comment

                          • memel
                            Member
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 24

                            Thank you very much for your help
                            So the conclusion is : it's better to do pre nup agreement to avoid to have problem if my indonesian husband wanna sell a house after our wedding (as i can't be owner in indonesia).
                            Just for information (if it changes something) i'll be married under islam religion

                            Comment

                            • Nimbus
                              Parade Rainmaker
                              • Mar 2010
                              • 6121

                              If you are married as Muslims, the inheritance law is rather complicated. However, this typically goes into play only when there's a dispute between beneficiaries. According to Islamic law blood relatives (especially from the male side) have precedence over spouse. If you don't have children, then your husband's parents and siblings will automatically get a cut of his estate before you do. Even a will won't change it, as a will is only considered applicable to whatever portion is left after all the rightful heirs get their share. Having a child is the best solution, because if the property is under his/her name then your husband's relatives can't legally get their hands on it.

                              Comment

                              • deviray50
                                Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 624

                                I was just wondering if a couple want to buy land or property can they register it in their childs name to get around the fact they don't have a pre-nup?

                                Ray
                                When my wife wants my opinion, she gives it to me

                                Comment

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