Help! My boss wants to 'hold onto' my passport.

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  • El_Goretto
    Banned
    • Sep 2010
    • 4295

    #16
    Originally posted by OomBen View Post
    :-( that makes me sad. I think playing by the rules is key, and many people here do not... I think they figure that this is the way it is, when in reality they are really just breaking the law. I bet the cops know a bit about the KITAS, at least enough to know that it's not supposed to be in the hands of an employer. Ah well, best of luck to you. do let us know what you end up doing!
    What you can be sure of, is that cops know very well how to extort money from "bule" it's very frustrating and saddening and it just makes one feel like being held hostage on all fronts

    Comment

    • OomBen
      Member
      • Oct 2011
      • 574

      #17
      I don't pay bribes, didn't pay a single rupiah more than I had to when getting my kitas... When we had our house broken into we didn't pay any bribe money. I always here these bribe stories, but I think its worth a shot... Just be sure to have a good Indonesian friend or family member with you to help you with the issues. Cops do love money for things like traffic violations and the expedited drivers license (which would normally take about two months to get due to the grief they give you).
      Tolak orang gila

      Comment

      • atlantis
        Banned
        • Jul 2008
        • 16593

        #18
        There are two things to clearly separate:

        1. The IMTA (Izin Mempekerjakan Tenaga Asing) or foreigners work permit in english, which is issued to a company and therefore belongs to the company. Therefore, the company should be the one holding it, and the employer could be entitled to get a copy of it should he asks for it. Note that the IMTA is not endorsed/signed by the empoyee (though his/her pic should be included and stamped on it) but is an official document delivered by the Ministery of Manpower where the Pemohon is clearly designed as being a company and not a person.
        2. The KITAS (Kartu Izin Tinggal Terbatas) or Temporary resident card in english, which is issued to a person and therefore belongs to the person whose name is on it, whoever has sponsored it. For example, my KITAP has been sponsored by my wife but belongs to ME, not to her, even if her name appears as the sponsor on the back of the card. "Sponsor" has never had the meaning of "owner", in any country. In the KITAS application form, the "applicant" is again the KITAS holder, not the company. There is no debate. Pasal 1, angka 21 Undang undang nomor 6 tahun 2011 tentang keimigrasian reads:

        "Izin Tinggal adalah izin yang diberikan kepada Orang Asing oleh Pejabat Imigrasi atau pejabat dinas luar negeri untuk berada di Wilayah Indonesia." (Translation: Residency/stay permit is a permit granted to foreigners by immigration officers or officials of the foreign service to be in Indonesia Region).

        If the residency is said to be granted to a foreigner (and not to a company/yayasan/agent...etc) we can reasonnably assume that any document proving that said foreigner is a legal resident belongs to him and should be kept unless otherwise stated in a prior written agreement (ex a working contract).

        A working contract could include penalties in case the employee ends prematurely his/her contract or looses/destroys his/her immigration document or could include that the KITAS is kept by the empoyer and given to the employee in case of need upon a simple request, but there is no legal ground for the employer to keep it without authorization from the holder. The contract doesn't say anything about it? He gives it to you. Period.

        Comment

        • atlantis
          Banned
          • Jul 2008
          • 16593

          #19
          Originally posted by Injun View Post
          I'm not aware of any law prohibiting an employer from holding your KITAS hostage, but of course that doesn't make it right.
          See above, Injun. The law doesn't have to prohibits an employer from holding it. The employer is not the one who is the holder of the KITAS, unlike the IMTA. Therefore he has no legal ground to hold it. If I decide to pay for your visas/permits or whatever to stay in the US, and have no prior agreement with you about who will keep the documents, do I have the right to hold them hostage? I believe not.

          Comment

          • atlantis
            Banned
            • Jul 2008
            • 16593

            #20
            Originally posted by jim69 View Post
            I thought that by law you should carry your passport, however i never do, also you should have the police ID card and your Kitas with you.
            So far, if you are a ITAS/ITAP holder, the law ONLY requires you to carry your SKTT (Surat Keterengan Tempat Tinggal, issued to foreigners holding a KITAS) or your KTP (Kartu Tanda Penduduk, issued to foreigners holding a KITAP). The rest can be left at home in a safe place:

            Concerning SKTT/KTP for foreigners:

            Pasal 20 Undang Undang nomor 23 tahun 2006 tentang administrasi kependudukan

            (1) Orang Asing yang memiliki Izin Tinggal Terbatas yang datang dari luar negeri dan Orang Asing yang memiliki izin lainnya yang telah berubah status sebagai pemegang Izin Tinggal Terbatas yang berencana bertempat tinggal di wilayah Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia wajib melaporkan kepada Instansi Pelaksana paling lambat 14 (empat belas) hari sejak diterbitkan Izin Tinggal Terbatas.
            (2) Berdasarkan laporan sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1), Instansi Pelaksana mendaftar dan menerbitkan Surat Keterangan Tempat Tinggal.
            (3) Masa berlaku Surat Keterangan Tempat Tinggal sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (2) disesuaikan dengan masa berlaku Izin Tinggal Terbatas.
            (4) Surat Keterangan Tempat Tinggal sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (2) wajib dibawa pada saat berpergian.

            Pasal 63 Undang Undang nomor 23 tahun 2006 tentang administrasi kependudukan

            (1) Penduduk Warga Negara Indonesia dan Orang Asing yang memiliki Izin Tinggal Tetap yang telah berumur 17 (tujuh belas) tahun atau telah kawin atau pernah kawin wajib memiliki KTP.

            (2) Orang Asing yang mengikuti status orang tuanya yang memiliki Izin Tinggal Tetap dan sudah berumur 17 (tujuh belas) tahun wajib memiliki KTP.
            (3) KTP sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) dan ayat (2) berlaku secara nasional.
            (4) Penduduk wajib melaporkan perpanjangan masa berlaku KTP kepada Instansi Pelaksana apabila masa berlakunya telah berakhir.
            (5) Penduduk yang telah memiliki KTP wajib membawa pada saat bepergian.
            (6) Penduduk sebagaimana dimaksud pada ayat (1) dan ayat (2) hanya diperbolehkan memiliki 1 (satu) KTP.
            Pasal 91 Undang Undang nomor 23 tahun 2006 tentang administrasi kependudukan
            (1) Setiap Penduduk sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 63 ayat (5) yang berpergian tidak membawa KTP dikenakan denda administratif paling banyak Rp.50.000,00 (lima puluh ribu rupiah).
            (2) Setiap Orang Asing yang memiliki Izin Tinggal Terbatas sebagaimana dimaksud dalam Pasal 20 ayat (4) yang berpergian tidak membawa Surat Keterangan Tempat Tinggal dikenai denda administratif paling banyak Rp.100.000,00 (seratus ribu rupiah),


            If any user doesn't speak bahasa indonesia, he/she can use google translate to get an approximate translation of the above. In short it means that if you are a KITAS holder you should carry wherever you go your SKTT and if you are a KITAP holder you should carry wherever you go your KTP. If you don't and get caught (and in the hypothese of the cop knows the law) you could be fine to IDR 100.000 if you are a SKTT holder and IDR 50.000 if you are a KTP holder.
            Note: this fines are the correct one if you have the requested documents but fail to produce it. If you can't produce it because you haven't applied for it, that's another story and should cost you around 10 times more if I remember correctly (but it has to be verified).
            A fine is a legal penalty which involves the issuance of some kind of official receipt. It has nothing to do with what we call doi popoji in bahasa manado.

            Concerning SKLD:

            Though any police officer may try to persuade you that you have committed an horrific crime if you are unable to provide it on the spot, and even though a warning on the back of the said document/card states: Kartu ini selalu dibawa oleh pemilik/cardholder have to bring this Certificate of Police, there is NO legal ground for it nor there is any legal penalty. You are requested to have it issued, but not to carry it at all time. A copy of it with eventually a promise to bring the original to the Intelkam office would be enough in most cases, and as long as you have been able to flash a SKTT/KTP.

            Concerning Passport and KITAS/KITAP:

            There is no legal ground to request to provide a passport or a KITAS/KITAP on the spot, as long as you are carrying a SKTT/KTP. Copies of them should be enough, again as long as you have provided a SKTT/KTP.
            Last edited by atlantis; 11-02-12, 04:55.

            Comment

            • atlantis
              Banned
              • Jul 2008
              • 16593

              #21
              Originally posted by El_Goretto View Post
              Going to the cops would be really asking for more troubles. The police would certainly not understand anything about the kitas etc and would most likely ask for payment.
              I beg to differ and I concur with oomben's statement earlier in the thread.
              Most of the time, the problem is to talk to the right interlocutor. To be honest, I may agree with you if you talk to any low level police officer who has poor understanding/knowledge of the law. The upper you go in the ladder, the better your chances are to deal with someone with a fair understanding of laws, including laws concerning foreigners and even if it's not anywhere close to there day to day job.

              I was yesterday outside of Sulawesi Utara Province, in Kabupaten Bone Bolango in Gorontalo province, to solve a problem involving a car, registered under my name, rented by my wife's company and which has been unlawfully used in a perampokan/robbery case involving a chase and some shooting with the cops. Not a pretty situation if you consider the picture.

              The car was missing for about a month. Soon after I came back from France I managed to catch the guy who rented the car from us and brought him to the police in Manado who have jailed him (at the time my wife reported him for penggelappan/misappropriation -article 372 KUHP ). The guy was uncooperative and unable to provide information about the whereabouts of the car.

              A few days ago I managed to locate it, thanks to our network of drivers the connections we have on the transsulawesi and my worst fears concerning its involvement in a serious criminal case got confirmed. Untill monday we had no clue where it was exactly, what it has been used for nor the police who seized the car after arresting one of the four criminals involved had a clue about who was the owner (id: me).

              I left Manado late in the afternoon on Wednesday. My plan was to try to be as early as possible in the PolRes Bone Bolango, 400 km south of Manado, to try to be visible by all in the Polres during the apel which is often attended by the Kapolres or the wakapolres who are the highest ranking officer. Being a foreigner, I was sure that they would spot me easily and would be naturally curious about what I was doing here, Bone Bolongo not having much touristic features to offer.

              As a matter of fact, if you can catch the attention of any high ranking officer and if you are seen communicating with them by the rest of the police officers, then it eases a LOT of your potential troubles. It has always been my "strategy" in any police precinct and it has always given me fair results. My wife is often puzzled at how transparent she can be in these sort of situations when she accompanies me. It also often pisses her off to admit that, as an indonesian, she may not be able to have an as fair treatment as I can get being a foreigner, in such situation. It obviously requires that the foreigner is able to communicate in a language they understand and a bit of diplomacy but I believe that even with a glimpse of Indonesian one can easily genuinely befriend with them.

              Anyway, I've spent some time with the Kapolres who introduced me with the wakapolres (the vice police chief for the kabupaten) and the Kasat Reskrim (the chief of the criminal division) whom I spend a big part of the morning with and we had a long and very pleasant talk about law but also about personal matters. Both were knowledgeable in various aspects of the indonesian law and very friendly. We've talked about immigration laws, business laws, land laws, mining laws...etc. the more we were talking, the more they became relaxed and casual.

              The afternoon part of the day has then been spent with field officers who received guidance from them and who had to take my report (BAP) along with the one of my wife and who had to deliver me the documents I was expecting. I left the PolRes in the afternoon, with a fair understanding of the criminal case and what happened, the STNK of the car, a very detailed surat tanda penerimaan from Polres including a full description of the car condition, what it includes and which gives the full responsability of the car to the POLRES for the time of the investigation (should anything be missing/deteriorated). I also left with the handphone numbers of the kasat and the wakapolres, along with an invitation to go fishing and diving with the Kasat, at his expenses, in the Gorontalo bay. The cost? 0, nib, not even 100 perak. My wife was pissed. She lost her bet and owe me a dinner. 24 hours before, she'd bet with me that we wouldn't get the STNK without paying and she was also persuaded that we wouldn't have the surat penerimaan signed and detailing the car conditions. I am quite happy as it will give her a reminder about Indonesian police being able to stick to the rules.

              One of the numerous problems that Indonesia has, is the attitude of its own citizen toward the police and corruption. They seem all persuaded than nothing should be/could be attempted to change the situation and simply avoid and dismiss avoid any confrontationnal attitude with the problem.
              Don't get me wrong, my intent is not to say that dealing with the police is easy. Not at all. I could fill the thread with personal examples of the hair rising incompetence of most low level officer. I just want to say that if you "prepare it", if you make sure that you are fully informed and force the meeting with upper level officers, you can deal with them quite succssfully.

              I understand that it can be frustrating, but I believe that the more you will learn about bahasa indonesia, the easier you will feel that you can handle situations involving cops. Believe me, by far, very far, I prefer to deal with cops than with the pejabat dinas we have to deal with in the case of public tenders. The level of corruption in this field is just unbelievable and it's a mere statement to put it like that.
              Last edited by atlantis; 10-02-12, 12:13.

              Comment

              • Nimbus
                Parade Rainmaker
                • Mar 2010
                • 6121

                #22
                Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                See above, Injun. The law doesn't have to prohibits an employer from holding it. The employer is not the one who is the holder of the KITAS, unlike the IMTA. Therefore he has no legal ground to hold it. If I decide to pay for your visas/permits or whatever to stay in the US, and have no prior agreement with you about who will keep the documents, do I have the right to hold them hostage? I believe not.
                He has no legal ground to hold it, but there's nothing on the book that prohibits and punishes him for doing it. Several other countries are better in this respect, they actually prohibit the practice and fine those caught doing it. Maybe in Indonesia you just have to treat it as a criminal matter and go to the police, report it as theft?

                Comment

                • rocel
                  Member
                  • Jul 2010
                  • 95

                  #23
                  is KTP the yellow card?
                  Everything is just mind over matter. If you don't mind, it won't matter.

                  Comment

                  • atlantis
                    Banned
                    • Jul 2008
                    • 16593

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Injun View Post
                    He has no legal ground to hold it, but there's nothing on the book that prohibits and punishes him for doing it.
                    Though there is no specific article of the UU tentang keimigrasian who prohibits you to keep hostage or barang or documents who doesn't belong to you, the KUHP does. There are a clear jurisprudence concerning misappropriation of documents. I've recently read a putusan MA which could be quoted for the matter. Though it wasn't about immigration documents, it was about documents belonging to a company and which were kept as hostage by an employee. The article indicting the employee was one of the chapter concerning... pengelappan/embezzlement.
                    It may be a long run before indicting the employer for the misappropriation of the KITAS, but it's a legal possibility, IMHO. It makes no doubt that the KITAS holder is the owner of the document, it makes little doubt that the employer is willingly retaining the documents. Therefore taking it hostage in absence of prior agreement is a misapproppriation and the article 372 KUHP could be applied. It also concerns documents.

                    Pasal 372 KUHP.
                    Barang siapa dengan sengaja dan melawan hukum memiliki barang sesuatu yang seluruhnya atau sebagian adalah kepunyaan orang lain, tetapi yang ada dalam kekuasaannya bukan karena kejahatan diancam karena penggelapan, dengan pidana penjara paling lama empat tahun atau pidana denda paling banyak sembilan ratus rupiah.

                    Anyway, I don't think that such case should be brought to the police before a clear and calm explanation of the law to the employer is initiated. It should be enough. The guy can't be that thick to ignore that it is a risky business.
                    Last edited by atlantis; 11-02-12, 04:58.

                    Comment

                    • atlantis
                      Banned
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 16593

                      #25
                      Originally posted by rocel View Post
                      is KTP the yellow card?
                      What you call a "yellow card" is a KITAS.

                      KTP look like this:



                      with the verso having the archipelago printed with on the top the mention "Kartu tanda Penduduk")

                      Comment

                      • El_Goretto
                        Banned
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 4295

                        #26
                        Originally posted by atlantis View Post
                        I beg to differ and I concur with oomben's statement earlier in the thread.
                        Most of the time, the problem is to talk to the right interlocutor. To be honest, I may agree with you if you talk to any low level police officer who has poor understanding/knowledge of the law. The upper you go in the ladder, the better your chances are to deal with someone with a fair understanding of laws, including laws concerning foreigners and even if it's not anywhere close to there day to day job.(...)[COLOR=#333333]I just want to say that if you "prepare it", if you make sure that you are fully informed and force the meeting with upper level officers, you can deal with them quite succssfully. [/COLOR]

                        [COLOR=#333333]I understand that it can be frustrating, but I believe that the more you will learn about bahasa indonesia, the easier you will feel that you can handle situations involving cops. Believe me, by far, very far, I prefer to deal with cops than with the pejabat dinas we have to deal with in the case of public tenders. The level of corruption in this field is just unbelievable and it's a mere statement to put it like that.[/COLOR]
                        Yeah ok, you made a point with your story, and it's cool to see that it is indeed possible to have a reasonable and pleasant dealing with state officers. But the reality is, 99% of members on this forum are armed with 1% of your skills and knowledge in bahasa Indonesia, law of Indonesia and experience of Indonesia. So to me, the OP, who doesn't seem to know basic stuff about what to do with his passport and KITAS (no offence intended, everyone has to learn at some point) and seemed to get bullied by his employer will just get eaten alive by the cops. As you pointed out, it's not just a simple matter of showing up to the cop shop and saying "hey, my boss doesn't want to give me my KITAS". There's a lot of leg work to do (as you are very well aware of) if he wants to achieve what you describe. I think he's better off finding an alternative solution if he wants to open a bank account soon.

                        Comment

                        • Happy_mom
                          Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 44

                          #27
                          Originally posted by El_Goretto View Post
                          Yeah ok, you made a point with your story, and it's cool to see that it is indeed possible to have a reasonable and pleasant dealing with state officers. But the reality is, 99% of members on this forum are armed with 1% of your skills and knowledge in bahasa Indonesia, law of Indonesia and experience of Indonesia. So to me, the OP, who doesn't seem to know basic stuff about what to do with his passport and KITAS (no offence intended, everyone has to learn at some point) and seemed to get bullied by his employer will just get eaten alive by the cops. As you pointed out, it's not just a simple matter of showing up to the cop shop and saying "hey, my boss doesn't want to give me my KITAS". There's a lot of leg work to do (as you are very well aware of) if he wants to achieve what you describe. I think he's better off finding an alternative solution if he wants to open a bank account soon.
                          I'd go with the pragmatic approach. I wouldn't mess with the current employment before getting another job as a replacement.

                          Condition of opening USD account in Bank Mandiri
                          Syarat dan Ketentuan[/h]
                          • Nasabah Perorangan
                          • Fotokopi bukti identitas yang masih berlaku
                            • WNI : Kartu Tanda Penduduk
                            • WNA : Paspor dan KIMS/KITAS/KITAP
                          I believe the condition is pretty much the same for other banks too

                          Comment

                          • Nimbus
                            Parade Rainmaker
                            • Mar 2010
                            • 6121

                            #28
                            I wouldn't be looking at UU Keimigrasian, this would be covered by UU Ketenagakerjaan. While the labor law is quite specific about many things, it is completely mum on the subject of employer holding employee's document hostage. Many employers in Indonesia hold their (Indonesian) employee's high school diploma as labor contract collateral, and the fact that they're not in constant legal trouble shows you that it's an uphill battle for employees.

                            Comment

                            • Bayangputih
                              Member
                              • Jan 2010
                              • 120

                              #29
                              Hello, sorry for taking forever to follow up. I've been very busy with several things non work related. Anyways during the teacher's meeting last Thursday I was able to get my KITAS back.

                              During the meeting I asked my boss, "In Indonesia do employers withhold an Indonesian employee's KTP?" He said no, so I asked him, "Then why are you holding the expats documents?" He sneered and said it was company policy. So I pointed out on the contract that it does not state whatsoever that he has to hold onto our papers due to 'policy.'

                              He looked really flustered, and said he would discuss this further in his office. I didn't budge, and brought up a few points. Such as...

                              1. If there is a robbery, or if the course burns down and all the documents are in the building; then it would be very very awkward to replace everything.

                              2. It would be a hassle for him, since we would always have to 'borrow' our KITAS and passports if we want to open bank accounts or go to the embassy.

                              3. Even if we did want to run away we could get emergency travel documents from the embassy. Thus making it pointless and not to his benefit to hold onto our documents.

                              4. If the police ever come to do a sweep, but he somehow loses or forgets were the documents are, and if we don't have the originals or copies on our hand. Then he would have to waste a lot of money to make them 'overlook' any possible violations.

                              During this time he kept on acting more desperate and urging me to speak with him in his office. You could feel the desperation and frustration pouring from his skin. All of a sudden he then stated that manpower told him that we could have all of our papers back. Kind of funny that he would state that out of the blue.

                              So at the end of the meeting he gave my KITAS back, and few days later the other expat got his passport and other documents. He was very pissed off and sad, because I exposed him in front of six other teachers and his wife (the 'senior' teacher.) So the moral of the story is: if your boss isn't reasonable expose them in public. That way they will have far less chances to screw with you (also the exchange is recorded on the company minutes so he can't ever pretend it never happened.)

                              Thank you everyone so much for your advice, and assistance. Before I close this though: I wanted to ask... if the boss was offering bahasa indonesian courses at his course which is owned by a franchise (and as far as I know you are not allowed to offer other courses apart from English ones) would it be effective to report him to the franchise with photographs of the book, teaching notes, and other classroom aids/documents related to that course?

                              Comment

                              • davobali
                                Member
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 897

                                #30
                                Before I close this though: I wanted to ask... if the boss was offering bahasa indonesian courses at his course which is owned by a franchise (and as far as I know you are not allowed to offer other courses apart from English ones) would it be effective to report him to the franchise with photographs of the book, teaching notes, and other classroom aids/documents related to that course ?
                                - quote Bayangputih .

                                __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

                                If I were you Bayangputih , Id just be happy that you got your documents back and leave it that ,. All you have to do now is just concentrate on being a good employee to the company ( or leave ) ....,

                                What the boss does with his francise is strictly between him and his franchisee , and is none of your concern . Pissing him off to get your documents is one thing and was something you needed to do , but I see no point in you making an enemy of him any further by attempting to discredit him and interfear with his income .
                                Last edited by davobali; 17-02-12, 07:10.

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