Hiccup thread closed?

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  • dafluff
    Member
    • Jun 2013
    • 1565

    #16
    Originally posted by wm View Post
    The Forum isn't over ! Paman launched the upgraded forum (new version), and unfortunately had an out of town work assignment the weeks after. Just waiting on him to work through the list of issues! Patience please
    Seriously? This is the ACTUAL reason? And 2 posts is all we get from you? Never mind that pretty much ALL the bugs that were identified are still present?

    So lets review: Not only did Paman launch a completely unnecessary update abruptly, he did it without announcing it to the users and the moderation team ahead of time, then he did it at the absolutely the worst time, namely when he himself can not support it for over 11 days and counting. Did I miss anything else, or is this the perfect "How NOT to upgrade a software" case study?

    He could have *announced* it 11 days ago, had the Mods and users test it in a test forum, listened to the community's feedback, then launch. Also being out of town for work is a flimsy excuse in 2016. This forum is on the INTERNET for God's sake.

    Yes this is your forum, you own it, and you can do whatever you want with it, but the community is also a stakeholder. This is bigger than what just you and Paman feel like doing on a whim. Sometimes we get real life changing emergencies in here, like for example that lady who had her kids kidnapped to Australia.

    Frankly, to me the way this has been handled is the height of incompetence and arrogance.
    Last edited by dafluff; 16-07-16, 18:28.

    Comment

    • marcus
      Member
      • Jul 2008
      • 9219

      #17
      Originally posted by DanInAceh View Post
      (1) So is the forum over yet?

      (2) the forum is intensely broken and chaos reigns? ...

      (1) The Forum is fine .

      (2) As far as I see , people continue to post questions , answers , comments , ... So where is the relevant problem .

      Comment

      • marcus
        Member
        • Jul 2008
        • 9219

        #18
        As I said before , I understand the moderators point .

        But I am surprised by the lack of respect to the Forum's owner showed by some normal members here .
        Last edited by marcus; 16-07-16, 22:24.

        Comment

        • jason206
          Member
          • Jul 2014
          • 281

          #19
          Originally posted by dafluff


          Always seeing the bright side! Very good! Maybe I should practice being an optimist as well....lol.



          All this forum being over and community dying talk is seriously bringing me down!

          [removed]
          *hand shoots up* Oooh! Mister! I know, I know!
          Last edited by paman; 19-07-16, 23:50. Reason: Edited to remove site that ripped off our forum design.

          Comment

          • Puspawarna
            Banned
            • Dec 2008
            • 10539

            #20
            Originally posted by marcus View Post


            (1) The Forum is fine .

            (2) As far as I see , people continue to post questions , answers , comments , ... So where is the relevant problem .
            marcus, I respectfully beg to differ. If you go to the "hiccups" thread, you'll see that people's posts began in a civil fashion for the most part, thanking paman for all his hard work but mentioning that there were a lot of bugs.

            It has been 11 days since then and we have heard zero from paman and only a very little bit from Danielle, as posters became increasingly restless at the lack of functionality. People can't send PMs, they get logged out constantly, the "last post" information is usually wrong, "mystery messages" are appearing and disappearing in a seemingly random fashion, and their posts aren't showing up. Further, as has been posted, if you research the internet it appears that vBulletin5 is generally considered to be a poor choice for upgrades.

            Now, if I were paman, in 11 days I would at least post something along the lines of, "Sorry the upgrade has so many bugs and I apologize that it is taking a while to fix them. I also realize that the membership should have been warned first, but to be honest I hadn't realized it was going to be such a big deal. Unfortunately something unexpected came up for me at work and I've been busier than anticipated, which is why I haven't been able to work out the bugs yet. However, I promise these problems will be taken care of as soon as possible. Thanks very much for your continued patience and for taking the time to explain the problems you're having."

            See how that works? A few sentences from paman within a few days of all the problems occurring, that included the words "sorry" and "thanks", would have done wonders for the situation. But instead we got silence. As a result, the membership is upset and there are no moderators any more. This is not a healthy, mutually respectful situation between the forum owners/administrators and the membership. If that isn't a "relevant problem" I don't know what is.

            Comment

            • marcus
              Member
              • Jul 2008
              • 9219

              #21
              Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
              (a) ... People can't send PMs, they get logged out constantly, the "last post" information is usually wrong, "mystery messages" are appearing and disappearing in a seemingly random fashion, and their posts aren't showing up.

              (b) ... it appears that vBulletin5 is generally considered to be a poor choice for upgrades.

              (c) Now, if I were paman, in 11 days I would at least post something along the lines ...

              (d) I also realize that the membership should have been warned first, ...

              (e) A few sentences from paman within a few days of all the problems occurring, that included the words "sorry" and "thanks", would have done wonders for the situation...

              (f) As a result, the membership is upset ... mutually respectful situation between the forum owners/administrators and the membership...

              Again , in my view we should separate moderators from the rest . So :

              (a) For users like me , the relevant functions to me are read posts and posting , anything else is secondary and we should wait until things return to normal .

              (b) In my view , this is totally up to the owner's decision .

              (c) As the owner wrote above , Paman is busy doing other things . And , in my view , we are getting this for free , so why can we demand an explanation from the owner/administrator ?

              (d) I don't agree . We are not clients who pay for this Forum's services .

              (e) See (c) above .

              (f) So how many members/visitors are upset ? And why ? I take the opportunity to say thank you very much to the Forum's owner . For more than ~ 10 years (the Forum already existed before 2008) in this "place" I had many benefits for free .
              Last edited by marcus; 17-07-16, 15:27.

              Comment

              • Puspawarna
                Banned
                • Dec 2008
                • 10539

                #22
                Marcus, you are absolutely correct that the owner of the forum can do whatever she likes with the forum - it belongs to her and it's completely her choice how to run it. No argument from me there. In fact I believe that during my moderator days I made similar arguments when people broke posting guidelines they didn't like

                Nonetheless, consideration of one's fellow human beings is always appreciated. The vast majority of people I interact with in this world (friends, co-workers, fellow posters, people I interact with in public places) are not "clients who pay for my services", yet I treat them with respect and expect them to do the same toward me. Just because the forum is free doesn't mean it is a wise strategy for the owner to be arrogant toward posters. Long time members - and I place you high among them - are a large part of the reason this place has been such a success in the past. Does that mean you deserve to be treated with common courtesy? In my book, yes. You don't care, though, and that's fine. I hope you continue to have an enjoyable posting experience here.

                Comment

                • bad_azz
                  Member
                  • Feb 2011
                  • 7175

                  #23
                  I would disagree that the long time poster have the benefits for free- be cause we have all contributed time and effort(some more valuable than others) & at the end of the day a forum should , as Pusp says , have some respect for the people who take time to invest in it - so to some extent we have paid in as well as taken out. & marcus you have paid in a lot.
                  It might not be money... but the combinations of contributions have made the forum what it was.
                  I am sure if we toted up the hours and converted the time invested it would tally up to a fair few dollars.
                  For me personally, I will probably keep dipping back in here on the off-chance it has improved.
                  However I am running my home internet from a mobile network that is not without its own issues, I don't have enough connection stability to prat about every time I want to look for something or post something or PM.

                  Wm - best of luck getting it all sorted out.
                  Cicak Magnet

                  Comment

                  • marcus
                    Member
                    • Jul 2008
                    • 9219

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Puspawarna View Post
                    (g) ... Nonetheless, consideration of one's fellow human beings is always appreciated. The vast majority of people I interact with in this world (friends, co-workers, fellow posters, people I interact with in public places) are not "clients who pay for my services", yet I treat them with respect and expect them to do the same toward me.

                    (h) Just because the forum is free doesn't mean it is a wise strategy for the owner to be arrogant toward posters.

                    (i) Long time members ... are a large part of the reason this place has been such a success in the past. Does that mean you deserve to be treated with common courtesy? In my book, yes. You don't care, though, and that's fine...
                    (g) I agree with you about that , but I think your comparison is not applicable to the Forum's case . I don't know/never met or contacted the Forum's owner and vice-versa , and I suppose this applies to most of the users .

                    (h) I don't see any arrogant behavior from the Forum's owner (see her/his post below , is there any other about this problem ?) .
                    Originally posted by wm View Post
                    The Forum isn't over ! Paman launched the upgraded forum (new version), and unfortunately had an out of town work assignment the weeks after. Just waiting on him to work through the list of issues! Patience please
                    (i) From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/courtesy :
                    Simple Definition of courtesy

                    (1) : polite behavior that shows respect for other people

                    (2) : something that you do because it is polite, kind, etc.

                    (3) : something that you say to be polite especially when you meet someone

                    So (2) due to the courtesy of the Forum's owner we come here and get benefits (kind action from the Forum's owner) .
                    (1) The Forum's owner showed a polite behavior in her/his post above (see wm's post) .
                    (3) is not applicable as most of us never met/had any opportunity to see any other behavior from the Forum's owner .

                    I got more courtesy from the Forum's owner than I (a completely stranger) deserve .
                    Last edited by marcus; 17-07-16, 13:15.

                    Comment

                    • marcus
                      Member
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 9219

                      #25
                      Originally posted by bad_azz View Post
                      (i) I would disagree that the long time poster have the benefits for free- be cause we have all contributed time and effort .. & at the end of the day a forum should , as Pusp says , have some respect for the people who take time to invest in it - so to some extent we have paid in as well as taken out... It might not be money... but the combinations of contributions have made the forum ...
                      For me personally, I will probably keep dipping back in here on the off-chance it has improved...

                      We indeed have different point of view .

                      So this is my view :
                      - The Forum let us come here for free ,
                      - Most of us like/need to come here ,
                      - In this Forum I learned a lot of important things that I use in my life ,
                      - If/when I spend time trying to help people , I do because I have that nice feeling for the opportunity to be useful , I exercise my brain (I think it is good for my mental health) , I may be making virtual friends , I avoid feeling bored , I improve my English , I improve my social skill , ...
                      - Thank God I found this Forum . It is an important part of my life now . Oopss , I am even forgetting my lunch meal .
                      Last edited by marcus; 17-07-16, 15:43.

                      Comment

                      • Happyman
                        Member
                        • Feb 2011
                        • 1912

                        #26
                        Originally posted by marcus View Post


                        We indeed have different point of view .

                        So this is my view :
                        - The Forum let us come here for free ,
                        - Most of us like/need to come here ,
                        - In this Forum I learned a lot of important things that I use in my life ,
                        - If/when I spend time trying to help people , I do because I have that nice feeling for the opportunity to be useful , I exercise my brain (I think it is good for my mental health) , I may be making virtual friends , I avoid feeling bored , I improve my English , I improve my social skill , ...
                        - Thank God I found this Forum . It is an important part of my life now . Oopss , I am even forgetting my lunch meal .
                        I'm glad you are happy with the forum, Marcus. I think that you are under valuing yourself though. People come here to get your advice. They ask for you by name. You, and other posters like you, are the reason that the forum owner has had a successful, forum. If there weren't people like you generating useful content... WM would not have a forum... she would own a web address that no one bothered to visit. The location without the community has no value.

                        I don't know whether or not the forum makes a profit... though I doubt it very much. Still, the system is one of symbiosis. We would not be able use this location without WM's permission, and WM's website would have no value without our posts.
                        Last edited by Happyman; 17-07-16, 19:28.

                        Comment

                        • bad_azz
                          Member
                          • Feb 2011
                          • 7175

                          #27
                          Marcus there is nothing to stop you being a member of more than one forum and contributing to both, you have some valuable knowledge and resources. It is a bit like spreading the love- the more you spread doesn't decimate it. It generates it.
                          Come join the others
                          Cicak Magnet

                          Comment

                          • Jaime C
                            Member
                            • Jan 2011
                            • 5235

                            #28
                            Originally posted by wm View Post
                            The Forum isn't over ! Paman launched the upgraded forum (new version), and unfortunately had an out of town work assignment the weeks after. Just waiting on him to work through the list of issues! Patience please
                            The lack of attention to a fairly busy forum is frustrating, to say the least.

                            Such a major upgrade, only to ignore major roblems for weeks just isn't the way to do it. I know many members feel they were totally ignored and left in the dark.

                            Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

                            Comment

                            • Jaime C
                              Member
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 5235

                              #29
                              Originally posted by marcus View Post


                              Again , in my view we should separate moderators from the rest . So :

                              (a) For users like me , the relevant functions to me are read posts and posting , anything else is secondary and we should wait until things return to normal .

                              (b) In my view , this is totally up to the owner's decision .

                              (c) As the owner wrote above , Paman is busy doing other things . And , in my view , we are getting this for free , so why can we demand an explanation from the owner/administrator ?

                              (d) I don't agree . We are not clients who pay for this Forum's services .

                              (e) See (c) above .

                              (f) So how many members/visitors are upset ? And why ? I take the opportunity to say thank you very much to the Forum's owner . For more than ~ 10 years (the Forum already existed before 2008) in this "place" I had many benefits for free .
                              A site like this is able to generate income by selling ads and sponsorships.

                              If there are no active members, and no posts, no one will pay money to advertise. The active users must be considered as a stakeholder in the website. I'm certainly greatful for this forum, but Management seems a bit out of touch with the forum. Being ignored has a tendancy to drive members away. The forum only works when users and management work together.



                              Sasa Bule is having a bayi!

                              Comment

                              • marcus
                                Member
                                • Jul 2008
                                • 9219

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Happyman View Post
                                ... If there weren't people like you generating useful content... WM would not have a forum... she would own a web address that no one bothered to visit. The location without the community has no value.
                                ..., the system is one of symbiosis. We would not be able use this location without WM's permission, and WM's website would have no value without our posts.

                                Happyman , I agree and I suppose this is what happens in all other forums .

                                Comment

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