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**Donting101** · 26-04-14, 11:04

Obstructions in regards to having married in london on a tourist visa and not a fiancé visa? It seems to good to be true but having spoken to no less than 6 different counsels across london every one of them said to get married in the UK a fiancé or other special visa is not required and hasn't been for at least 2 years ... Yet the embassy still have a fiancé visa on their site for application

Btw I hate making threads on an iphone. So i apologise for poor gramma and not a very good story

**Donting101** · 26-04-14, 18:08

Can I request this thread be moved to the law and visa section? Thanks

**bad_azz** · 26-04-14, 19:32

Remember to register your marriage with the Indonesian Consul at the embassy in (I presume) London, so that it is recognised upon return to Indonesia.

Are you sure they don't want proof that she is not already married...? Its usually a requirement & depending on her situation in Indonesia not altogether easy to put together from outside the country.

404 | Portal Kementerian Luar Negeri Republik Indonesia

http://www.indonesianembassy.org.uk/consular/consular_married_in_uk.html

**mrcibubur** · 26-04-14, 20:24

It is a while since I assisted anyone (an Indonesian) for a tourist or financee/spouse visa to Uk but I would just make certain observations which can serve as a red flag and no more to the situation described on this thread.

1. There are strict conditions attached to the grant of a tourist visa and one of them, we may assume, is that the visitor enters UK as a tourist with the intention of being a tourist

2. Getting married to a Brit you already know and who is your partner (if not your actual sponsor for the visit) or marrying someone yyou meet in the UK is not within the general and common definition of tourism unless you coin the phrase 'marriage tourism' within that definition

3. There is a considerable difference in the cost of a tourist visa and a fiancee visa, though both are normally granted for a maximum period of six months

4. If an Indonesian tourist were to marry a Brit within the 6 months of the tourist visa, they would have to leave UK at the expiry of the six months period. There is no right of extension under any circumstances

5. If an Indonesian fiancee marries his/her partner in the Uk having entered Uk on a fiancee visa, then my understanding is that once married, they apply to the Home Office for 'indefinite leave to remain for 12 months' and do not have to exit UK

6. Once married and granted indefinite leave to remain for 12 months, they are free to exit UK and return again, I think, within a 90 day window

7. On application for the visa to go to the UK, I suggest that either certain information was incorrectly stated or represented or the Consular officials vetting the application did not question the applicant whether there was an intention to marry

8. Perhaps the plan to marry may be compared to a plan to work or study while entering UK on a tourist visa which could have ramifications to the Indonesian partner, British Partner or other sponsor involved with the result that the Indonesian may be asked to leave UK as being in contravention of visa conditions

9. There is, I believe, no law which prevents an Indonesian who has entered on a tourist visa applying to get married in Uk

10. There is, however, I believe, a fairly recent Law which means that certain checks must be undertaken (I do not know exactly what checks) that the couple are, in fact, contemplating a bona fide marriage and not a fake one for the purposes of gaining UK status

11. It might be unpleasant and highly disagreeable if, having gone to so much trouble to jump through hoops to get the Indonesian into UK, if the marriage was not to take place due to a technical hitch

12. I am also surprised if nothing has 'yet' been asked of the Indonesian evidencing her eligible capacity to marry - single, widowed, divorced or otherwise

13. It has been said that if it is too good to be true, then it probably is, so I would take heed. British Consulates are not prone to mistakes of the type to which the OP alludes regarding the irrelevance of Fiancee Visas and Indonesia is very much the 'Rule' rather than the 'Exception

Having said that, I have no wish to put the 'mockers' on fate and destiny and I wish the couple well in their future plans. I am sure the OP can do as necessary to look up online and wherever appropriate the relevant Laws and Immigration directives and there is a specific UK Britishexpats website I recall which can be accessed if he googles for it

**Donting101** · 27-04-14, 07:31

Finally have my computer back and can now use a keyboard!

Originally posted by bad_azz View Post

Remember to register your marriage with the Indonesian Consul at the embassy in (I presume) London, so that it is recognised upon return to Indonesia.

Thanks BA - She has spoken to the Embassy last week and they can register it in 2 days. Just in time before we go back to Indo

Are you sure they don't want proof that she is not already married...? Its usually a requirement & depending on her situation in Indonesia not altogether easy to put together from outside the country.

http://www.indonesianembassy.org.uk/...ied_in_uk.html

Correct, she does not need it. The indonesian embassy website is implying it is necessary for when applying for a finance visa prior to entering the UK. on the UK gov website it does not state that any such document is required for the actual giving notice or registry if she has not previously been married. Every registry office confirmed this, they take it as a given considering we have very harsh bigamy laws should she have lied and the marriage becomes is void.

**martindo** · 27-04-14, 08:17

Proof is almost like the "honor system" in some countries. My wife presented a death cert of her former husband *in Indonesian* and the clerk in NY took it as sufficient proof of non-impediment to marriage.

BTW, "registration at Indonesian embassy" is still proven by a "chop" stamp on the marriage cert, isn't it? Make sure it's clear when photocopied.

**Donting101** · 27-04-14, 08:53

Thanks Mrcibubur for making the time to write such an extensive post

Just to clarify that in addition to the registry office I visited in person and had a very explicit conversation with the registers (with her passport and other docs), I also called FIVE others around the London area and was given the same information consistently, before I confirmed the bookings.

I should also note that years ago (2006) I went through the whole spouse / leave to remain visa with my ex wife, who was Thai nationality. As you are probably aware although the rules have changed slightly (not much) in how to get a leave to remain spouse visa, it is almost exactly the same for Thai as it is for Indonesian – in fact more difficult for Thai as there are far more bogus applications coming out of Thailand than Indonesia for such visa’s so you have to be VERY comprehensive with the application backup. Ours was granted first time. We were married 2 years prior to the visa, and divorced 2 years after in 2008. So I do have some experience first hand on that side of things (we were married in Thailand though)

What I am undertaking now is a different kettle of fish.. and unplanned.

Originally posted by mrcibubur View Post

It is a while since I assisted anyone (an Indonesian) for a tourist or financee/spouse visa to Uk but I would just make certain observations which can serve as a red flag and no more to the situation described on this thread.

1. There are strict conditions attached to the grant of a tourist visa and one of them, we may assume, is that the visitor enters UK as a tourist with the intention of being a tourist

2. Getting married to a Brit you already know and who is your partner (if not your actual sponsor for the visit) or marrying someone yyou meet in the UK is not within the general and common definition of tourism unless you coin the phrase 'marriage tourism' within that definition

points 1 and 2 agreed

which is why i was initially convinced it was not possible to marry while we were here - i never even considered to ask, until i gave into my partners nagging to call the registry office directly to ask 'just in case', as the nightmare of doing it in indonesia in our short time frame available was getting too much. i called them up, heard it from the horses mouth.. still didn't believe it. so i went down to the registry office in the borough that i live in (just down the road) and asked to speak to one of them directly and got the absolute explicit information on the requirements - they said it was absolutely and utterly no problem at all, and they would be happy to marry us. they only needed the documents required above...

requirements for my partner:
'does she have valid ID? such as a passport'.. yes
'been in the UK for more than 8 days?.. yes'
'2 documents showing proof of address?.. yes (clarified credit card statement and letter from me is more than sufficient')
'has she ever been married before?.. no'

'ok then thats it, that is all you need'. I took her passport with me and our proof of address, and they were happy to book our registration on that

me:
does she need any letters confirming that she is single status? 'no'
does she need a letter from her parents stating she can get married? 'over 18, no'
absolutely 100% sure she does not need a specific visa to get married here? 'definitely not, no. we haven't needed anything like that for over 2 years. we can marry anyone provided they entered the uk legally, which she has from her entry stamp and she can show she has been here for 8 days and has proof of address.

the only caveat they noted was that i needed to be the owner of the property at which her proof of address is (i.e, cant be a hotel). i am the owner of the property.. so they said that my proof of address docs to make it easier should be my mortgage statement and a counsel tax bill.

now the fact that we CAN get married.. doesn't mean that we should - as you rightly said, the intention of a tourist visa is tourism, not marriage. but as we all know there is no way a couple where one partner comes from a non commonwealth or developing country can be together without pushing the limits of the tourist visa. an old acquaintance of mine did not want to marry his partner, he wasn't sure, so she applied and received countless tourist visas one after the other and maxed them out 6 months at a time for YEARS, this was between 2007 and 2010. they got married in 2011 and thats that. so she was spending time here beyond the original intention of the tourist visa

- in 2012 we lived together in indonesia for almost 1 year before her first trip and visit to the UK. she was in the UK for 3 weeks, then 2 months later another week. this was a multi entry tourist visa (6 month)

- in 2013 a 2nd visa was granted for a 3 month trip while i was back in the UK on business and she accompanied me. again a 6 month multi entry tourist visa

- in 2014 the 3rd visa (6 month multi entry again) was issued - our intention was to stay here for the full 6 months and then think about what we were going to do.. get married and apply for a spouse visa after? or a non-married partner visa? as i had since left indonesia and was working in the UK. she was granted the tourist visa in january but i subsequently quit my job in February, and we have just had the last 2 months off in the UK enjoying life off work and decorating my new apartment. her visa is valid until august

We decided we were going to go back to Indonesia at the end of may (so that means she would have spent 3 of the 6 month visa in the UK) and get married, go travelling around the world for a few months while we are still young and without children – then she would go back to JKT for a few months and do a random job while I would start work again in the UK and build up a few months salary slips, at which point we would apply for a spouce visa. It would mean we were be apart for up to 6 months but I’d visit in between and it would be worth it as we’d have ticked our dream of travelling off the list and also we’d finally be ‘settled’.

The nightmare of the Indonesian marriage process for mixed couples re the quantity of paperwork and the fact I’m not keen on converting to islam meant that there is no way we could have done it in less than 1 month, which means we’d cut too deep into our travelling ‘time slot’ (I do have a mortgage to pay for while we are away! For every day is precious!) and made the whole endeavour seem more pointless as we needed to travel for at least 4 months to get done what we want all in 1 go before we have kids. We’ve been talking about it for years. So now this option of getting legally wed in the UK has come about, it fits in our time slot before we fly back to indo (flights already booked), it makes perfect sense.

I have read online several cases of this happening, mostly the reports are from americans marrying in the UK on tourist visas to a brit. They said that they appended a letter to their spouse visa when they went to apply to explain the situation (as they know what they did was cheeky), and their spouse visas were approved. We intend to apply for the spouse visa some time early 2015 based on our travel plans and work plans when we get back

4. If an Indonesian tourist were to marry a Brit within the 6 months of the tourist visa, they would have to leave UK at the expiry of the six months period. There is no right of extension under any circumstances

correct, and we will be leaving shortly upon receipt of the marriage certificate once its registered at the Indonesian embassy. We have no intention to overstay

5. If an Indonesian fiancee marries his/her partner in the Uk having entered Uk on a fiancee visa, then my understanding is that once married, they apply to the Home Office for 'indefinite leave to remain for 12 months' and do not have to exit UK

if you enter on a finance visa (which his now 3 months validity not 6, you must marry within 3 months). Then you can apply for Leave to Remain (not Indefinite Leave to Remain, you cant apply for that unless you’ve been here for 4 years or more). And Leave to remain is now 30 months. After the 30 months is up you can apply within the UK for Further Leave to Remain (which is another 30 months). After that, you can apply for Indefinite / or British citizenship

**Donting101** · 27-04-14, 08:53

I’m now jumping back to point 3…

3. There is a considerable difference in the cost of a tourist visa and a fiancee visa, though both are normally granted for a maximum period of six months

a fiancé visa is listed on gov.uk as £600 – 6 times more than a tourist visa.. but this is because the amount of work the ECO has to do to process the fiancé visa is the same as if they were processing a spouse ‘leave to remain’ visa.. because upon entry on a fiancé visa and upon receipt of a marriage certificate… you then apply for leave to remain within the UK, which is easy – considering you have already gone through the rigour of providing the docs to enable you to get the fiancé visa – you do not have to do it all over again

the difference in cost is understandable

upon our marriage, we have no more rights for her to stay in the UK than if we were not married, in the eyes of UK immigration. She has to go back anyway

We are not trying to ‘trick’ immigration – we are just trying to avoid getting married in Indonesia or anywhere else for that matter, because we have a time limit. The intent is purely that. And we will explain that next year when we apply for the spouse visa on our cover letters

7. On application for the visa to go to the UK, I suggest that either certain information was incorrectly stated or represented or the Consular officials vetting the application did not question the applicant whether there was an intention to marry

No. When we applied everything was stated correctly at the time. We had no intention to marry in the UK or anywhere else at that time, and I was working. They knew our circumstances as we were and have always been extremely transparent. We have never been refused a visa and always come in and out of the country when we said we would. But now our circumstances have changed.. that’s life. No ones perfect. I couldn’t stand working where I was working, so I quit, we decided to go to Indonesia to get married and then go travelling.. turns out its too complicated to do in the time frame that we have.. so we asked if we could get married here in the UK before we leave. They said yes. So we did (are going to).

8. Perhaps the plan to marry may be compared to a plan to work or study while entering UK on a tourist visa which could have ramifications to the Indonesian partner, British Partner or other sponsor involved with the result that the Indonesian may be asked to leave UK as being in contravention of visa conditions

it was not a plan

who is going to ask us to leave?

9. There is, I believe, no law which prevents an Indonesian who has entered on a tourist visa applying to get married in Uk

10. There is, however, I believe, a fairly recent Law which means that certain checks must be undertaken (I do not know exactly what checks) that the couple are, in fact, contemplating a bona fide marriage and not a fake one for the purposes of gaining UK status

as she is Indonesian – she cannot gain ‘UK status’ simply by being married to someone from the UK. Those checks may pertain to another nationality where that may be possible (something like Russia, Ukraine, for example?). They had no problems with an Indonesian

12. I am also surprised if nothing has 'yet' been asked of the Indonesian evidencing her eligible capacity to marry - single, widowed, divorced or otherwise

they did ask and the answer of ‘no’ was enough, they require no documentation at all to show she is single. As my answer was ‘yes’ to being previously divorced.. I have to take the divorce certificate.

Please see my response to BA, as I believe they do not need to see it is down to our bigamy laws.

13. It has been said that if it is too good to be true, then it probably is, so I would take heed. British Consulates are not prone to mistakes of the type to which the OP alludes regarding the irrelevance of Fiancee Visas and Indonesia is very much the 'Rule' rather than the 'Exception

There is a benefit to the fiancé visa.. and that is once it is approved, you can essentially come to the UK, get married, and then never go back if you did not want to. As once you have that fiancé visa and marriage certificate, register it and convert it to spouse / leave to remain.. you are on the path to citizenship provided you stick to the terms and conditions to enable one to reach it.

the tourist visa facilitates nothing of the sort.

**Donting101** · 27-04-14, 09:11

Originally posted by martindo View Post

Proof is almost like the "honor system" in some countries. My wife presented a death cert of her former husband *in Indonesian* and the clerk in NY took it as sufficient proof of non-impediment to marriage.

That sounds about right - their tone implied that this was the case. they did not say that 'if she says she is single, then we take that as a given' but they did say that 'if she is single, she does not need to provide any documents to say so or otherwise, at all'

if she was found out to be married prior to our marriage she could go down to 7 years in jail. which is why i think as you say, its the honor system, or 'a given'

BTW, "registration at Indonesian embassy" is still proven by a "chop" stamp on the marriage cert, isn't it? Make sure it's clear when photocopied.

can you please elaborate? cheers

**bad_azz** · 27-04-14, 10:28

Glad to hear you have thoroughly researched it all ...
Just one minor point that I forgot to mention...
You will have to have a sworn translation done of your certificates for registration in Indonesia (should you return here), but get that done in Indonesia as its cheaper.

I married an Indonesian in Thailand & it was a bit more complex than what seems to be the case in the UK.
The Indonesian embassy there refused to issue the freedom to marry document without having written permission from my husband's parents

In fact all of the hurdles we encountered were rooted in the Indonesian Embassy, it became the bane of our life for almost a fortnight.

Best wishes for the upcoming nuptials

**martindo** · 27-04-14, 12:07

As noted in my previous post, we got married in NY. That was 1997. My wife was a widow with one child in SD and one in SMP, so it was fairly easy to provide "sufficient" evidence of intent to return to Indonesia when getting a visa. US is *much* stricter now.

We got a marriage cert from a township (like kecamatan in Indonesian terminology) and my father mailed it to the Consulate in NY. They stamped it on the back ("chop" or "cap"). I do not know what else "registration" means -- I assume they entered it in a database.

Later in 1997, we took that stamped marriage cert to Catatan Sipil in my wife's town and got Pemberitahuan Perkawinan which was sufficient for a number of SosBud visas over the years. We did not provide any translation to Catatan Sipil, contrary to what Bad and others have posted. I suppose they felt that the data (e.g., names, dates) on the English marriage cert were clear enough to extract for the Pemberitahuan.

Only when we applied for citizenship for our kids early in 2007, were we told that Pemberitahuan is not an actual marriage cert, only a kind of acknowledgment. Imigrasi said we needed a notarized US marriage cert from US embassy. In addition, we got a "Mengetahui" stamp on the Pemberitahuan Perkawinan alongside the original stamp.

We did not need to translate the notarized American marriage cert for KanIm. Never asked for a translation.

There may be some variation due to differing levels of comfort with English-language documents in different cities.

**bad_azz** · 27-04-14, 12:44

Just to be clear; my intent is not to scaremonger rather to advise that it is easier (most often) and quicker if one has the bases covered, because its Sod's law that the one document you did not get is the one some bureaucrat will insist on having.

**martindo** · 27-04-14, 13:29

Who invented Sod's law? Someone on grass? How different from Murphy's law?

**bad_azz** · 27-04-14, 13:42

i'd say its the same law without the negative Irish connotations

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