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Marrying my Indonesian fiance in the UK

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  • #31
    Originally posted by henkrubus View Post
    i think this say it all, its makes it easier to get married, get a permanent residence but no signs yet for property rules.. so and everthing is still unclear, i spoke too soon.. but its in the pipeline as they say lol
    The article in the link you provide says nothing about land ownership. Law No. 6/2011, the pending PP and technical guidance don't either. I (and many other foreigners married to WNI without a prenup in place) are hoping since long time ago for a change in Indonesian law that would allow at least the Indonesian partner to own property without the need for a prenup. I'm aware, as has been made claer in related threads in this forum, that such a change in the land law would require a change in Indonesia's basic law. If this is ever made, which I seriously doubt, it would take decades.

    I honestly hope to be corrected on this. So please provide the sources that make you say a change in the law is "in the pipeline". Basing your opinions on this issue on speculation and hearsay confuses and misguides.
    "Science is the philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance"


    • #32
      Originally posted by henkrubus View Post
      i think this say it all, its makes it easier to get married, get a permanent residence but no signs yet for property rules.. so and everthing is still unclear, i spoke too soon.. but its in the pipeline as they say lol
      The law you quote has been enacted on May 5th, 2011. It is called Undang Undang nomor 6 tahun 2011 tentang keimigrasian. The implementing regulations has also been passed in April 2013. This is old news... You would find countless informations and posts about it in the archives of our forum about it. An example in these three links.
      - http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...-and-Paspor-RI
      - http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...n-Keimigrasian
      - http://www.livinginindonesiaforum.or...ITAP-UU-6-2011

      If you would read the indonesian medias, this law and its implementation has been extensively commented and detailed. However, it has nothing to do with making "it easier to get married" or with land ownership. It is about immigration and it concerns Indonesian and foreigners alike.

      The problem of land ownership for foreigners or for mixed couples have nothing to do with the law you are talking about.

      I advise you to be careful and not to rely only on this kind of blogs to get your informations. They are often inaccurate, which is the case here if you read thoroughfully the article, and rarely quote their source. They sometimes have poor knowledge about laws, and are mainly report things that they've heard or read without really verifying it. I advise you to stick to Kompas or any of the decent indonesian newspapers if you want to be closer to the truth.

      The problem of land ownership has to do with the Constitution RI (Undang Undang Dasar Negara Republik Indonesia) and to be honest, it can't and won't be fixed easily, just by a passing of a law. To allow foreign ownership, the Constitution would need first to be modified and for obvious reason, this is not something which gonna happen.

      Originally posted by henkrubus View Post
      [COLOR=#333333] we have lots of properties, all in the name of my wife, am i stupid who knows, i do not care, it will go eventually all to my kids if she passed away, we have everything notarized, even as a foreigner you will have some rights,[/COLOR]
      [/COLOR]The fact that everything is notarized is irrelevant Henkrubus and has little meaning to be honest. If you read indonesian fluently and do a bit of research about tanah sengketa, you would quickly find out that it isn't rare to have lands with two certificate, both notarized and bothe registered in BPN for example. Also in the case of mixed couples, if the kids are dual national, they can NOT inherit as per article 21 (3) and article 21 (4) Undang Undang nomor 5/1960 tentang peraturan dasar pokok pokok agraria. This law is the one which prevails in matter of land affairs until now. See below:

      Pasal 21
      (1) Hanya warga-negara Indonesia dapat mempunyai hak milik.
      (2) Oleh Pemerintah ditetapkan badan-badan hukum yang dapat mempunyai hak milik dan syarat-syaratnya.
      (3) Orang asing yang sesudah berlakunya Undang-undang ini memperoleh hak milik karena pewarisan tanpa wasiat atau percampuran harta karena perkawinan, demikian pula warga-negara Indonesia yang mempunyai hak milik dan setelah berlakunya Undang-undang ini kehilangan kewarganegaraannya wajib melepaskan hak itu di dalam jangka waktu satu tahun sejak diperolehnya hak tersebut atau hilangnya kewarganegaraan itu. Jika sesudah jangka waktu tersebut lampau hak milik itu dilepaskan, maka hak tersebut hapus karena hukum dan tanahnya jatuh pada Negara, dengan ketentuan bahwa hak-hak pihak lain yang membebaninya tetap berlangsung.
      (4) Selama seseorang di samping kewarganegaraan Indonesianya mempunyai kewarganegaraan asing maka ia tidak dapat mempunyai tanah dengan hak milik dan baginya berlaku ketentuan dalam ayat (3) pasal ini.

      If you don't get it, I suggest you ask your wife to read it and to explain it to you. If you have any questions about it, please feel free to fire them in one of the thread which refers to it (there are many) or in a new thread. If your kids are WNI only they can inherit, but you need to be aware that the State could theorically challenge the inheritance due to the fact that there are no prenup agreement subrogating the joint property rules in your marriage, and due to the fact that you are the owner of 50% of any properties you have bought with your wife, even if said SHM properties are under the sole name of wife on the SHM tittle. As you are maybe aware, a foreigner is not supposed to own SHM in Indonesia. The fact that the name of a foreiigner does not appear on a SHM tittle doesn't necessarily mean that he is not owner of it. The joint property rule makes him de facto owner of half of the property.

      Even if you "[COLOR=#333333]have everything notarized" you should be aware that there is a serious flaw in the legality of the ownership of your properties. Even if it is a theorical risk (so far the Indonesian State has never pushed to enforce the stipulation of art 21 (3)) and claim the land own jointly by mixed couples), it's always interesting to be aware of it.[/COLOR]

      Unfortunately many notaris in Indonesia have a very poor knowledge of the law they are supposed to work with when it comes to mixed marriage issues. In your case it seems obvious that the notaris you have dealt with when you acquired your properties is well described by my above sentence.

      To be honest, it is not that big of a deal and I wouldn't be worried too much about it. The only problems you may have to face would be if you intend to sell one of the properties, but since there are still countless of ignorant notaris you shouldn't have to search for too long before finding one who is ignorant enough to conduct the sale.

      Trusting notaris? Think twice...
      Last edited by atlantis; 08-07-13, 17:11.


      • #33

        If you would read the indonesian medias, this law and its implementation has been extensively commented and detailed. However, it has nothing to do with making "it easier to get married" or with land ownership. It is about immigration and it concerns Indonesian and foreigners alike.

        Oops see that’s the problem with this forum, correcting members, knowing everything better, should read the newspapers, well you can go on reading the newspapers if you have nothing else to do, I read them too, guess what I can read lol. It is just a piece of info that I thought It had also to do with properties, which indeed it hasn’t, which you can read, it was just a gesture to send members in the right direction, and it shows that the immigration process will be a lot easier in the future. About marriage I do not think there is a problem, you can do it here, or abroad, its just a lot of paperwork, but most of the time not that complicated.

        Your advice not to rely on this kind of blogs, has probably to do with the fact that this blog is much better informed then yours, does not deal with only harsch corrections and childisch cynical remarks, this blog is much better informed and excist much longer, and has tons of info, and they do not have “ poor “ knowledge about laws, I guess you guys now more about this subject then everyone else. Stick to Kompas haha, you must be kidding me, you probably also rely on the Washington Post or CNN, because they are “ trutsable sources “ right ?
        I am not a journalist, and do not have to verify my sources, I just want to point out some things, in which I admit is not complete, but at least the emigration think is true, the landowner ship not yet, so be it…. There are many things on the board not confirmed or verified, no one is trying to hang out the smartass, people just want to share their opinions in order to let others have an opinion, and can discuss it in a normal matter, and not just fire away with useless cynical phrases and childish corrections as you do.

        It depends all who you know it this country, there are lots of crooks Notarized and fools who pays them, there you go again with your narrow minded negative opinion about Notaris offices, you must be having a lot of experiences and knowledge of this area right ?
        Well I got news for you , there are also fine Notaris guys which do not ask a lot of money and work LEGAL, because that’s what they should supposed to do, it just who you know, and relations, and COMMUNICATION with the locals, and not just throw a sentence UNVERIFIED, please check your sources first if you put something in this blog before telling everyone that they most of the Notaris are crooks…..
        You want to explain to me that there are lots of properties with 2 owners hahah, I probably know more then you think about this subject, it is nothing new indeed, but the ones with a bit intelligence go to eg in DKI to the office of planologie, and CHECK the number on the certificate and the status of the tanah, and if there are any plans or bonkar in the area in the near future, it works the same as in you home country only fools get fooled , you should know that from your sources, again negative thinking without giving a real advice. The real advice is checking it out with officials, 2 owners ! haha I met someone who had 5 owners, one of them was a general who build a villa on “ his “ property, and because of the one had more cash to hold out legally, he lost, so who is the fool !!! common you must be thinking everyone is an idiot, go and double check everything before buying anything is my poorly advice……
        Furthermore there is a lot you can do via Notaris it all depends on your situation, in ours eg it was very simpel, we have a lot of propertie, my wife worked very hard for this, myself a bit I was in the situation that my spouse had more assets then me lol… So like I explained If I should pass away, a Notarized document will just say, that my wife who owns all her propertie herself, leaves everthing to our daugher who lives abroad, and YES ONLY my daugher has Dual citizenship for obvious reasons, we were so mart to figure this out years ago, before you did, that this has an advantage., You did not asumed this right ? you were thinking what an idiot, well wrong again, This is done because of certain local by- laws which has to do with religion, that properties could be divided to the eldest son ect ect blba bla which BS does not work for us, we do not want, she will inheritage everything, as stated in a will and noboddy can change this, not even in Indonesia
        She will then take hold of all ownerships and deal with the “ boys “, the main point in our situation is that no one can sell any property when she passed away, and YES even me myself , wauw that would be big deal right, getting nothing from my wifes property glad we are not that materialisticsh. The asumption of many foreigners that they have no rights locally with property is very correct, that’s why every situation is different, we could do this because first of all we have kids, do not know if this is an advantage, don’t know up to now lol… second in my humble opinion, not checked with the board, if you are ready to jump in the mariage boat and you are not a miljonair, what the heck does it matter ? if you don’t trust your wife or future spouse why should you even get married, just because you feel like it, or need something every night beside you to play with, comon use your brains, if you don’t feel “ save “ with your money don’t get married, then you wont have all this problems, using a pre nup , well go ahead, but only a “fake” would accept that in my opinion, if you starting with distrust, you will create distrust. One will ofcourse have a different opionion again and saying “ why should I give my spouse everything I worked for after a divorse “ ? well that’s the risks of live, I think if something would happen, it not only one person who makes mistakes, always two, I think a mariage gives good guidelines for ownership of certain things, try to work things out, it is a “ thing “ on which you wil have to work every day and not once a week or so, he, if you do not like it, don’t do it very simple.
        You really must asume that some people are idiots, “ kids must have dual citizenship in order to inharit property“ yeah right, every fool knows this.. pfff give me a break and then putting below that the law which says so in Bahassa indonesia, asuming I can read indonesin, hell yes I can , and ofcourse I can always ask my wife she knows it much better then persons who just copies laws from the Internet, and then asume that they are so smart?

        If I do not get it, I will ask you, because you seems to be the smartest one on this board, with all your comments.

        Haha yes if all the property is in the name of my wife, before she was even married to me, and only her sole name is on the property, guess what, she owns it, I cannot own property. What you are saying that if an Indonesian spouse has properties in her own name, before she got even married, she can official not sell this because married to a foreigner who cannot own property, also for you it counts “ on what planet did you live the last years ?”
        If you do cannot own property you do not own it simple period. You do not need a pre nup for this, she can sell anything she wants what she owns at any time, I asume you can back this also up with all kind of copied lines from “ the law “ ? Why I get the feeling that pre nups only work one way, and is an just an instrument so one can say, sorry honey I do not like you anymore, goodbye , and no hard feelings, or beeing afraid to lose your money to the “ right “ person ? again afraid of all this, simple do not get maried very easy !

        Trusting Notaris ? trusting your spouse ? Trusting no one in this country ? you got have the answer ….. stay single, or get a pre nop, and think twice, and never trust your spouse any single day she could take your money, because most of them are only after your money and the colour of your pasport, YES true it is an economical thing in less fortunate countries, I agree, but to me it seems that if you want to spend your time one this “ level “ you are either a fool, or the same, and finding troubles means getting troubles, so do not complain simpel


        • #34
          You are funny, Henkrubus. Love ya...


          • #35
            Originally posted by atlantis View Post
            You are funny, Henkrubus. Love ya...
            Must be a day of love for all the wrong reasons. I guess better then getting reprimanded and suspended.

            So, love ya Henkrubus. Errrrrrrrrr, OK, I did it.
            [COLOR=#333333][FONT=Verdana]Some love to milk Apostate.[/FONT][/COLOR]


            • #36
              finally the super mod loves me, now its getting scary ! but thank for your nice words this time, or maybe do i get the sack later on ? lol, lol means fun its a joke, just telling you this in case you do not know it and get nasty on me if you do not know what it means, you can always ask your spouse anyway, salut, bye


              • #37
                Originally posted by henkrubus View Post
                salut, bye
                Good riddance!
                I think the board member can easily judge by themselves and I don't need to help you digging your own hole. You do it very well yourself. Please don't stop, it's entertaining.


                • #38
                  "henkrubus can only hope to improve"

                  very well put

                  In the meantime can inaccurate posts be removed from this thread, it makes the thread unreadable